Irony is a beautiful thing sometimes, but I guess that fact would allude most of the folk at that conference you attended. I could not have taught my dog not to interact with livestock without employing an "octopus" tentacles across the face response when he made mistakes, not hard just annoying to him, and treats when he got it right. If I was just treating he would still be on a long lead, frustrated and a danger to livestock if he got off. Now he can spend whole days on the hill with me, off the lead. I am relaxed, he’s relaxed. If he sees sheep he stops and looks at them and then walks away. The consequence of getting it wrong has to be there in a kind appropriate manner so the consequence of getting it right can be put into overall context by the dog. Dogs are not stupid, they can easily make the link.
School of Canine Scienceon January 28, 2020 at 1:00 pm
This is a articulate and intelligent question and I’m a little disappointed you didn’t get the chance to ask it at the meeting. My own answer would be that at the moment we see trainers in 3 boxes. Positive, balanced & traditional but it’s a spectrum and that some won’t fit into a box well. There are positive trainers I don’t want to be associated with as there are balanced trainers I don’t want to be associated with. I’m sure there are balanced trainers that you have witnessed in the past that make you cringe?
There are many positive trainers that use punishment, infact the majority these days don’t subscribe to the ignore the bad apart from the far end of the spectrum.
The line for many is the use of physical aversives in the form of pain.
Remove me from the kennel club group is one thing (I’m not a member to be clear) but physically hurt me as the consequence is very different.
Please be aware I’m not suggesting that all balanced trainers are using pain I’m just making a distinction.
Well said Jamie. What maybe you should consider doing is start making people more aware of ardo and how to join the fight against hypocrisy. We can all contribute in some way. Just a thought.
Laura's Life Dog Training & Dog Vlogson January 28, 2020 at 1:07 pm
Well said. It is such a double standard. I hear so often Science proves that adversives are cruel and using tools is abusive. I think having a dog never run free is cruel. I watched the ladies speech on Youtube and found it concerning. People have to and need to be realistic as Dogs are Animals. Keep fighting Jamie. Thank you .
bravo, I recently had some force free people get annoyed with my ideas and punished me by using insults and personal attacks…after they told me that scolding dogs was bad.
You are already finished based on being in agreement with the exact same superficial process. The bans are a done deal. Your in a compromised position too blind to see it.
If I may , animal learns by consequence, reinforcement or punishment, however , they might not have the cognitive ability just like human to intelligently knows what’s right from wrong. As human can easily or morally know the legit way to deal with our world with consciousness or conscience, animal dont!
Therefore I will agree that using the model LIMA is appropriate for animal learning.
Excellent point. Maybe at the bottom or in the background of it all is simply this: governing bodies in all walks of life make this error, that, they assume that their regulations can unify or control ‘all people’ to think & act like they demand. There are too many different people with different abilities, different intelligence & patience levels, to presume that they will all act exactly like the governing body wants them to. Meaning, if they prescribe one acceptable way to train dogs, a bad trainer will find a way to do it wrong & abuse dogs. There will always be a variety of good trainers & bad trainers. They cannot stop it because they cannot change bad trainers (only people who WANT to learn & change can be helped). BUT, they can respond to a problem when it arises & assist in improving the situation, after it comes to light. Some bad trainers can only train with a 2×4 or a whip, (call it abusive, fear training), because that is all they know & are able to do. Break their will, make them feel pain, force them to obey, … how many times have people done this to other people? These bad trainers will be rooted out eventually. There are many trainers who get the same results using different methods – meaning, one method is not better than another because the ‘person doing the training needs to use what they are capable of using for their abilities. Purely Positive Training has ruined a generation of children in the school system. Imagine ‘Purely Positive Training for all new motorists’, or for employment. These idiots in high places, controlling the governing body, need to consider accepting all training that works as long as the dogs are not abused.
So very very glad we have such an eloquent speaker in our Corner…Keep up threat work Jamie
Irony is a beautiful thing sometimes, but I guess that fact would allude most of the folk at that conference you attended. I could not have taught my dog not to interact with livestock without employing an "octopus" tentacles across the face response when he made mistakes, not hard just annoying to him, and treats when he got it right. If I was just treating he would still be on a long lead, frustrated and a danger to livestock if he got off. Now he can spend whole days on the hill with me, off the lead. I am relaxed, he’s relaxed. If he sees sheep he stops and looks at them and then walks away. The consequence of getting it wrong has to be there in a kind appropriate manner so the consequence of getting it right can be put into overall context by the dog. Dogs are not stupid, they can easily make the link.
Beautifully put, mate!
This is a articulate and intelligent question and I’m a little disappointed you didn’t get the chance to ask it at the meeting. My own answer would be that at the moment we see trainers in 3 boxes. Positive, balanced & traditional but it’s a spectrum and that some won’t fit into a box well. There are positive trainers I don’t want to be associated with as there are balanced trainers I don’t want to be associated with. I’m sure there are balanced trainers that you have witnessed in the past that make you cringe?
There are many positive trainers that use punishment, infact the majority these days don’t subscribe to the ignore the bad apart from the far end of the spectrum.
The line for many is the use of physical aversives in the form of pain.
Remove me from the kennel club group is one thing (I’m not a member to be clear) but physically hurt me as the consequence is very different.
Please be aware I’m not suggesting that all balanced trainers are using pain I’m just making a distinction.
Well said Jamie. What maybe you should consider doing is start making people more aware of ardo and how to join the fight against hypocrisy. We can all contribute in some way. Just a thought.
Well said. It is such a double standard. I hear so often Science proves that adversives are cruel and using tools is abusive. I think having a dog never run free is cruel. I watched the ladies speech on Youtube and found it concerning. People have to and need to be realistic as Dogs are Animals. Keep fighting Jamie. Thank you .
I wish these morons would watch this video and use their brains when they talk ablot this stuff…
bravo, I recently had some force free people get annoyed with my ideas and punished me by using insults and personal attacks…after they told me that scolding dogs was bad.
You are already finished based on being in agreement with the exact same superficial process. The bans are a done deal. Your in a compromised position too blind to see it.
If I may , animal learns by consequence, reinforcement or punishment, however , they might not have the cognitive ability just like human to intelligently knows what’s right from wrong. As human can easily or morally know the legit way to deal with our world with consciousness or conscience, animal dont!
Therefore I will agree that using the model LIMA is appropriate for animal learning.
Just my opinion..
Excellent point. Maybe at the bottom or in the background of it all is simply this: governing bodies in all walks of life make this error, that, they assume that their regulations can unify or control ‘all people’ to think & act like they demand. There are too many different people with different abilities, different intelligence & patience levels, to presume that they will all act exactly like the governing body wants them to. Meaning, if they prescribe one acceptable way to train dogs, a bad trainer will find a way to do it wrong & abuse dogs. There will always be a variety of good trainers & bad trainers. They cannot stop it because they cannot change bad trainers (only people who WANT to learn & change can be helped). BUT, they can respond to a problem when it arises & assist in improving the situation, after it comes to light. Some bad trainers can only train with a 2×4 or a whip, (call it abusive, fear training), because that is all they know & are able to do. Break their will, make them feel pain, force them to obey, … how many times have people done this to other people? These bad trainers will be rooted out eventually. There are many trainers who get the same results using different methods – meaning, one method is not better than another because the ‘person doing the training needs to use what they are capable of using for their abilities. Purely Positive Training has ruined a generation of children in the school system. Imagine ‘Purely Positive Training for all new motorists’, or for employment. These idiots in high places, controlling the governing body, need to consider accepting all training that works as long as the dogs are not abused.
Its irony ith them isnt it? Always do as i say..not as i do, (in public anyway..,)
Legend 🙂
Well argued. Well presented. Excellent video. I completely agree with you.
Hi Jamie, which party would you vote for the upcoming general election. Labour and Conservatives are both in favour of ban…?